Monthly money call

Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina
Faciliator: Nick
Date: 30th November 2019

We had the first of our new monthly money calls!

The idea is to distribute money from the “karrot account” which has been sat there for a while due to lack of a concept of how to share it.

We had a long-ish free-ranging discussion across a few main areas:

  1. high level meta concepts about money, value exchange logic, economics, etc
  2. our personal lives and finances
  3. practical ideas to put into practise right now!

The process was initiated by me because I am trying to create a life structure in which I can work on the projects I really want to, and cover the costs of my life. I am also very interested at the moment in these wider abstract questions, things like:

  • moving away from wage labour
  • money to support what it takes to be able to work on the project
  • money to use to get things which cannot be got for free

We thought about whether it should be just to cover costs of life, or also pay for things like travel costs for other people to come and join hackweeks, or to enable people to participate where money would be a problem otherwise. We are all very middle class and have had relatively comfortable/supported financial lives. We have all had savings, but generally they are going down now - so in some way our current lives are not sustainable.

I am interested in a way of society and work that is sustainable in some way, accepting that this might mean significant changes to keep costs low.

We wondered what it takes for people to join the money calls, and thought it should be fairly loose, but that participation in the weekly calls would be useful. It will probably primarily work because of the trust relationship between us, so should build that up with any people joining.

It’s also nice to be able to support projects like kanthaus that help the project a lot.

We agreed to transfer 70EUR to each of us this month, and reflect on how it felt in the next call. We don’t want to feel like we are working for the money, or to start spending more as a result of receiving some money.

We also agreed to write the minutes publicly for transparency about what we are doing and thinking!

Future monthly calls would be a lot shorter, skipping all the meta topics…

I didn’t take notes during the meeting to keep it free flowing, so these are maybe biased towards my personal thoughts, feel free to add any points I missed @tiltec / @djahnie.

Next call: 27th December 2019
Next faciliator: Janina

4 Likes

“EfA – Essen fuer Alle” works entirely on a voluntary basis.

Even so, EfA could not work so efficiently, collecting food and distributing it to people who need it, without your work on karrots.

EfA would agree and would be glad, if we can support your work on karrots e.g. by a monthly contribution.

3 Likes

It looks like you are pretty much looking for the “holy grail”
a lot of ppl would like to have

  • a sustainable income that let’s you do what you want without obligations
    or feeling bound to any expecation receiving money.

are the money calls open for everyone ?

are the money calls open for everyone ?

I think they are by default open to join for “Karrot contributors”, that usually means people who regularly join the weekly call or make/made other significant contributions. As we don’t have formal rules (yet), we can make exceptions, but I personally would ask less involved people to read the minutes instead.

Date: 2019-12-27 12:30 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Janina
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

1. Last month review

write down some words about your financial situation and how you felt about karrot money in the last period

  • Since last month was the first payday meeting we wanted to find out how it feels to receive money from the Karrot fund.
    • Sadly we didn’t manage to actually transfer money. That makes it hard to say how it feels to get it…^^’

2. Up this month

write down what you expect to happen with regards to karrot money in the next period

  • Bruno and Sandro will come to Kanthaus in January to focus on Karrot. We want to offer them some refund for travel expenses.
    • The amount would be based on low budget traveling, not on the ticket price already paid.
  • We agreed on paying each of us 70€ again and Nick did a bank transfer of 280€ to Tilmann’s account immediately (70€ per month for Janina and Tilmann).
    • This means that next month we’ll be able to say how it felt to having received money from the Karrot fund. :slight_smile:

3. Discussion

  • More meta talks about the concept of money in general and how it relates to value and trust.

4. Next

Next meeting: 2020-01-31 12:30 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: tba

Date: 2020-01-31 15:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

Notes

  • Janina likes the feeling of donating some money to Kanthaus, Tilmann agrees
  • We should ask Sandro again explicitly if he’d like some travel costs to be reimbursed.
  • Set aside money for foodsaving worldwide conference at foodsharing festival?
    • not yet, maybe apply for Engagement Global funding
  • Funding for foodsaving communities
    • what would they need money for? -> start research in community forum
    • make clear that we see it as redistribution, not as handing out our money -> we also seek donations!

Expenses

  • Nick’s travel cost for Hackweek: 33€
    • will be directly taken out of the cash machine by Nick
  • Kanthaus Hosting of Hackweek: 50€
    • via Tilmann and Janina, delay payout until next payday call to reduce bank transfer fees
  • Nick, Janina, Tilmann payout: each 70€
    • delay Janina and Tilmann until next payday call to reduce bank transfer fees
  • Domain costs for 2019: 73€
    • foodsaving.today: about 19€/year
    • karrot.world/foodsaving.world: about 27€/year each
    • will be directly taken out of the cash machine by Nick

Next

Next meeting: 2020-02-28 12:30 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: tba

Date: 2020-02-28 12:30 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: all
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

Notes

  • mostly chit-chat, we didn’t work much on Karrot but we think about it a lot

Expenses

  • Nick, Janina, Tilmann payout: each 70€

Next

Next meeting: 2020-03-27 12:30 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: tba

note: this was not the actual money call, but a reflection about it…

Date: 2020-06-07 12:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: The Hive Mind
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

Agenda

  • reflection on why it stopped

    • tilmann: calendar reminders not working, more focused on non-karrot stuff in last period of time, not much to discuss in the call, just confirming the state, not on mind… felt like it’s not urgent so fine to postpone to next month… repeat…
    • janina: generally bad at remembering (need reminder!), actually felt relieved when the call didn’t happen as felt odd to receive some money without doing much, felt like a difficulty of deciding how much, so arbitary… generally feeling vague, not paying out each call… felt disconnected from it all. but do think it’s cool we do it, and want to find a way to make it more relevent
    • nick: did actually get reminded but didn’t feel like these calls were embedded in what we do, structure missing, maybe more question to answer could help…? agree to what was said before in terms of vagueness and no urgency, but also want to improve it because it’s actually a core model in life to have better money distribution structures, gap between theory and practice
  • how to continue?

ideas:

  • tilmann: proposal to maybe attach it to the weekly call at the end of the month? (unless we have a lot to talk about on the weekly call, to make it not too long)
    • janina: solves problem of forgetting perhaps?
    • janina: might feel annoying as we manage to talk a lot even when there is nothing on the agenda
  • janina: preparation sheet / questions to answer in advance
  • janina: as we don’t really have expenses, it’s about a personal thing. shared economy meetings reference: really cool, talk about their actual needs. would be more interesting.
    • nick: likes the personal approach
    • janina: shared economy stuff in kanthaus already has some structures, can talk to nathalie

The Idea:

  • incorporate ideas from shared economy / more personal vision

    • thinking more about which expenses are coming up next month
    • … what do I really need money for … not just “the usual”
    • making our personal situations transparent to each other
    • then come up with a number
    • reflection of last months expenses, was it as expected? especially good/bad stuff that happened regarding money?
  • write up some questions we answer each time

    • janina to discuss with nathalie and propose some questions (on rocket chat), then we do it at the next scheduled money call (end of month)
  • stick it onto the end of one of the weekly calls

    • last sunday of the month
    • shared calender?
      • kanthaus nextcloud?
      • a karrot group with “pickups”?
      • a discourse event plugin?
      • rocket chat reminder feature?
      • reminder in yunity slack?
  • continue (in the way decided just before this point)

Outcomes

  • somebody might look into calender/event/reminder scheduling thing
  • Janina will talk to nathalie and post suggestion for call structure to #payday channel
  • do next payday call next scheduled time (2020-06-28) after the next weekly call

Next

Next meeting: 2020-06-28 after weekly call
Next facilitator: tba

Date: 2020-06-28 after weekly call
Facilitator: Janina
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina, Bruno

Agenda

What are your fixed monthly expenses?

  • Janina: Nothing via my account except the fees for said account. Health insurance is ~90€ paid from Tilmann’s account. Actual living expenses are hard to put a number on and go via Kanthaus accounts.
  • Tilmann: 90€ health insurance + ~30€ other recurring stuff
  • Nick: £20 phone, £10 email/backup/vpn, rent 175EUR. total ~210EUR/month + unknown food + beer amount.

Were there any changes to those expected expenses last month?

  • Janina: No.
  • Tilmann: A bit less in summer because of solar power and no heating.
  • Nick: No.

What were your additional expenses last month?

  • Janina: Some baby milk, oats and a visit to a cafe. Maybe 40€ in total.
  • Tilmann: No baby food because Janina bought it. Always unclear how much I should contribute to Kanthaus building expenses, even though it’s not really a ‘personal’ expense.
  • Nick: birthday presents for the kids! £70, passport £80, £10 on books

Did you have trouble covering for your needs/obligations financially?

  • Janina: No.
  • Tilmann: No.
  • Nick: No.

Would you have spent more on something if you had had more money at hand?

  • Janina: That’s always hard for me to say since I never really had an income… It was nice spending a thousand euros of my mum’s money on wedding rings though.
  • Tilmann: Yeah I think generally I would have spent more if I would have income, but then it’s more like spending 5k or 10k on things like a shielded bike or high quality woodworking tools. It would be luxury expenses which I don’t make because I don’t know where the money comes back from after I spent it.
  • Nick: No.

Did you have any income?

  • Janina: 204€ of Kindergeld on Tilmann’s account, so no…^^
  • Tilmann: Nothing to add.
  • Nick: Nothing so far.

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

  • Janina: 70€ because of a lack of better ideas…^^’
  • Tilmann: 70€ for each of the last 4 months, mostly to donate to Kanthaus
  • Nick: Ditto.

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

  • 6929.16€

Feedback

  • Janina: interesting connections coming out between money and material needs of our dreams (buying land!)
  • Tilmann: liked it, maybe first 3 questions were just 1 question?
  • Nick: also liked it, but the two question to which the answer was no are maybe not needed. also the connection between what we talked about and how much money we want is missing a bit. we could maybe also include funding stuff in the money call and create a section for it, or make a ‘anything else you wanna say’ section. that could also be the section to share interesting theoretical models about money that people came across recently and such.
  • Bruno: I would try again with this format, was good.

Outcomes

Ideas

  • Janina will try to come up with a number to put on her fixed monthly expenses.
  • Tilmann thinks of making up some kind of Kanthaus rent which also includes contribution to construction costs.
  • New section about funding possibilities?

Payout

  • Janina: 4 x 70€ to Tilmann’s account
  • Tilmann: 4 x 70€
  • Nick: 4 x 70€

Next

Next meeting: 2020-07-26 after weekly call
Next facilitator: Tilmann

Date: 2020-07-26
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Janina, Bruno, Nick, Tilmann

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

  • Nick: 170€ rent, all th stuff from last month like a phone bill and such. More food this time.
  • Tilmann: 50€ donations to Kanthaus, 90€ health euros
  • Janina: Same as Tilmann’s.

What were your additional expenses last month?

  • Nick: A solar panel for 60€.
  • Tilmann: train tickets to my parents place 20€
  • Janina: 1000€ to Harzgerode for wedding party and as support, 500€ to crowdfunding

Would you have spent more on something if you had had more money at hand?

  • Nick: No.
  • Tilmann: No.
  • Janina: No.

Did you have any income?

  • Nick: Should have sent some invoices but didn’t, so no.
  • Tilmann: Kindergeld (204€ in total)
  • Janina: Same as Tilmann

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

  • Nick: Still don’t really know what to say, so I just go for the 70€ as a default.
  • Tilmann: 70€ again
  • Janina: 70€ for simplicity

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

  • 6087.36€

Anything else you want to say

  • Recognition that we’re privileged. We can get the stuff we need.

Feedback

Outcomes

Ideas

  • Prefill the pad to make the call shorter.
  • Distribute 70€ to another person or project as a donation.
  • We should keep our eyes open for grants which are easy to get, so that we can practice giving away.

Payout

  • 70€ to Nick
  • 70€ to Tilmann
  • 70€ to Janina
  • No transfer to Tilmann and Janina this month to save the fees.

Next

Next meeting: 2020-08-30 after weekly call
Next facilitator: Nick

Date: 2020-08-30 after weekly call
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Janina, Tilmann, Nick, Bruno

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

  • Janina: 50€ donations to Kanthaus, 90€ health insurance
  • Tilmann: same as Janina
  • Nick: 170€ rent, all the stuff from last month like a phone bill and such. More food this time. Calculated food! (not complete), but maybe 120€/month between us. 200€-300€ in total.

What were your additional expenses last month?

  • Janina: 20€ for a new used baby carrier thing, 5€ for a drink and a meal at Spitzenfabrik Grimma
  • Tilmann: none
  • Nick: Train tickets to/from Kanthaus (40EUR), had a fancy meal out! (mmmm), maybe 30-40EUR

Did you have any income?

  • Janina, Tilmann: Kindergeld (204€ in total)
  • Nick: nope

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

  • Janina: 70€ for simplicity
  • Tilmann: 70€ seems good to offset some monthly expenses
  • Nick: 90€, normal 70 + half the train ticket

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

  • 6017€

Anything else you want to say

  • Janina: EfA want to support us with monthly money transfers. I gave them our account details and said thanks. We’ll see how much arrives. :slight_smile:
  • Nick: adding Janina/Bruno to transferwise if they want

Feedback

  • Janina: nice and quick! (by directly typing our own stuff into the pad)
  • Nick: also liked it nice and quick

Outcomes

Actions

  • noticed our liberapay logo is wrong, Tilmann is fixing
  • keep an eye on the transferwise account for incoming from EfA

Payout

  • 90€ to Nick
  • 70€ to Tilmann
  • 70€ to Janina

Next

Next meeting: 2020-09-27 after weekly call
Next facilitator: Tilmann